The Tower of Power...

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby bktheking » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:41 pm

Here is a bit of info - a post from Clams Canino who is an inline guy on his timing and link n sync procedure up to 1988 inlines, if the timing is spot on then just go to the carb part:




Timing and Sync of Merc Inlines (to 1988)
Manual specs are different for each but this is close enough to get them all REAL close. This assumes nothing is broken or "wrong" with it. This also assumes that the timing pointer is properly adjusted (if adjustable) to accurately read TDC of the #1 piston.This basic procedure will work for all the 2/3/4/6 cylinder inlines from 1960 to 1988. It's not for the newer 3 and 4 cylinder loopers.Engine offDisconnect throttle cablePull throttle arm to full throttle and verify carbs open fully. Adjust main throttle stop so that the carbs are JUST hitting thier own little throttle stops. The idea here is that you want the screw stop and NOT the carbs acting as the "final stop" for your throttle lever.Return the throttle to idle, carbs should be closed. Set all idle screws to 1 3/4 turns out from lightly seated.Remove all plugs except #1, hook a timing light to #1. Then follow the narritive.When the throttle is in the idle position the carbs should be fully closed and the ignition retarded. It is the amount of retardation that determines your idle speed and is set later with the idle stop screw. Timing Event One - throttle pickup.As the throttle is advanced, the spark timing advances toward TDC and then to before TDC. As the timing is just passing TDC the 1st (minor)throttle pickup should hit and start to open the carbs. Use the timing light. Adjust the tang or trigger screw to make this a reality. All of them are speced different, but if the 1st pickup hits at 3-4 degrees BTDC advance - you win. Use the timing light with a friend cranking it to complete this setting.Timing Event Two - max advance.As you continue to advance the throttle the timing will advance while the carbs slowly open a bit more. The next adjustment is max advance, this is the point where the distibutor (or trigger) can advance no more. Set the max-advance stop to 21 degrees for "direct charge" crossflow inlines and 34 degrees for the older plain vanilla crossflows. Use the light, - err to the side of caution.Right after max advance, further throttle motion should cause the second throttle pickup to hit and open the carbs to full. You already set that -now verify it.Leave the throttle cable disconnected and go to the water. Leave the boat strapped to the trailer and back it in so it's deep enought to run. Have a friend crank it while you operate the choke and throttle. Warm it up at 1500 rpms's.When "warm" adjust the idle stop screw for about 800 rpm and then ajust your idle needle(s) in (one at a time) till the motor stumbles. Quickly backing it out 1/2 turn from "stumble" will usually save it from needing a re-start. Do that for all the idle screws. Re-set idle stop for 800.Now have your friend put it in gear (make SURE you are on the transom NOT in the water) and reset your idle stop for as low as you can get it. 500-600rpm is great if your old reeds will let it idle that low in gear. Now, re-adjust the idle screws, in to stumble, then 1/2 turn out. When you've gone back and forth with that a few times and have it "perfect" - adjust each one out 1/4 turn.Reset the idle stop so that it's about 700-800 out of gear and 500-600 in gear. Sometimes bad reeds won't let you get that low, you've GOT to get it under 1000 in neutral (worst case) to avoid beating up your lower unit when you shift into gear, even 1000 is "bad" but like I said "worst case".Now adjust (and hook up)the throttle cable so that with the shifter in neutral, there is light to moderate pressure holding the throttle arm against the idle stop.Take the boat off the trailer and go out in the water. Try the hole shot. If it falls on it's face try adjusting the idle screws out 1/4 turn at a time (all of them together) till you can get a hole shot. You can kind of do this on the trailer at the ramp, but it's not really safe for you, the boat, or the tow vehicle.You're done.-W
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:47 pm

Pretty sure you meant counter clockwise, clockwise would lean it out.


Ya might want to re-read what I said :)
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby bktheking » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:51 pm

1500J wrote:
Pretty sure you meant counter clockwise, clockwise would lean it out.


Ya might want to re-read what I said :)
Conrad



My mistake, thought it said just clockwise  :shock: My error has now been corrected. Love the vids Conrad, keep em up.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:59 pm

Cool.  :)
Thanks for the complement.  I like your KE4 also!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:25 pm

Garret,  I just want to point out.  Keep all these trouble shooting procedures separate.  Work on one at a time.   You probably already know that, but if you start working on several of these things at the same time you cannot tell what is making it better or making it worse.

Id get your idle up 2oo rpm first.  Then adjust the idle jets on all 3 carbs out 1/8 turn and see if that helps.  Give it time to react and warm up.  Idle adjustments are not always immediate reactions to your input.    Should be able to put it in gear, quickly snap the trottle up and back to idle without dying once right.

These two things are easy to do and will most likely help your problem.  And if this does not work you can easily put it back the way it was.   (but id leave your idle up a bit tho)

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fastjeff » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:23 pm

Just for the record, idle adjustments can be made at any throttle setting below the point where the carbs start to open. You can then back down the idle speed after you get 'em set close.  

I like the idea of idling it WAY down and getting it even better, but you'd go bananas trying to do that with a triple!  On them, the best way I've found is with a temp gage on the plugs.

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:53 pm

Just for the record, idle adjustments can be made at any throttle setting below the point where the carbs start to open. You can then back down the idle speed after you get 'em set close.

I like the idea of idling it WAY down and getting it even better, but you'd go bananas trying to do that with a triple! On them, the best way I've found is with a temp gage on the plug
s.


I like your style Jeff!

I run into problems often  when trying to set the RPM very low and adjusting the slow speed jet right where it runs clean at those low RPM's
I dont know how many times I get caught up into trying to get a motor to idle at 700 and shift to 500.   I get the WOW IT IDLES GREAT FEELING. BUT!  I can get it to work while testing, but in real world use it usually fails. Conditions change, many things change and that super low idle can be more trouble than its worth.

Anymore I shoot for a 900 RPM idle in NEU and a 700ish in gear.  It starts better, keeps running better etc....

Those super low idles usually turn into silent neutrals at the dock

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fastjeff » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:01 pm

Oooowww!  Don't mention the words "silent neutral"!  Carl will come back from his grave to haunt you.

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fixitdaily » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:36 pm

I am new to this site and love to read about the older Mercury's.I own a couple of inline 4's and a 90hp inline 6.I rebuilt the inline 6 over the winter.I did not mess with the bleed Restrictors (weren"t any, gone,history).I would really suggest taking the carbs off and do a real good cleaning.Mine Idles @ 900 Rpms and around 700 RPM in gear.My Idle mix screws are just about 2 complete turns out on all three and when I hit the throttle I am off to the Rodeo.I have tried that get as low as possible 500-550 RPM doesnt work for me. A little rich on the idle makes for a great hole shot.From lessons learned running my motor on the muffs is just to see if she still will fire and run,anything else (Tuning) is done at the drink.The inline 6 that I rebuilt was because of Number 3 piston failure either to lean or running to hot.Probably not advisable but I bypassed the neutral safty switch inside the Merc. control box because sometimes my motor has an attitude and will Idle higher than normal so if she is warmed up I will start her in forward/reverse gear and go from there.I also bypassed the fuel quick disconnect/connect on the motor it was sucking air.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fastjeff » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:16 am

.."I also bypassed the fuel quick disconnect/connect on the motor it was sucking air."

I've seen that happen as well.

Jeff
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby bktheking » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:17 am

I went out  on my boat tonight (69 1000) idles at 850, 500-550 in gear. I played with the adjustment and it is VERY sensitive to 1/8 turns. Just for shits and giggles I turned the center carb in 1/8 and it stalled instantly, this is just an example of how setting them exact is key to idle. I wanted to get mine perfect, it is now, a couple of idle needle tweakes now and it will idle all day. I tested it from forward to plane back to neutral, shift to reverse  back to neutral then idle until it was perfect.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:36 am

It is quite the sense of satisfaction when you get it right.   My 1500 had 2 or 3 different carb problems that made it run horrible.  I was very discouraged but kept at it.  I finally got it figured out and its fun to get to the dock and crank and go.

Garrett if Im ever in CR I can look at it for you.  I think the bigger carbs are closer to 2 full turns out vs 1.5 like the smaller motors.

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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby LarryR » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:22 am

I think the bigger carbs are closer to 2 full turns out vs 1.5 like the smaller motors.  
I share that opinion - in fact, I run most of my 66-inch sixes engines nearer 13/4
little merc shop, Londonderry, NH; 1946 thru 1961 merc restoration :)
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Garrett » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:01 am

Wow, that's a lot to remember! I will use all this info to hopefully get things straight. I am so scared to mess with the idle screws due to possibly burning a piston. Conrad, I thought you lived in CR? I am in Waterloo, but sometimes go there for things.
bktheking wrote:I went out  on my boat tonight (69 1000) idles at 850, 500-550 in gear.

Very envious!!

On a side note, the general consensus is that the difference in and out of gear is around 200 RPM, but I have noticed mine is around 300. I don't know if that's a bad sign or what. I suppose it just means I have more to compensate for! This is coming from last year when it idled in neutral at 1200 and thumped to 800 in gear.  :shock:

Jeff, since I don't have a temperature gauge, what else would you recommend I use? My ears? Like I said, blowing up my motor doesn't sound fun.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:07 am

Im in Des Moines.   Yep you got some work to do :)   You wont burn a piston on the idle screws.  If you get it too lean, it will not accelerate up to mid range.  it will just bog out.  Just work in small steps, small movements and write down what you did.  That way you can easily get it back.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fixitdaily » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:04 am

This is how I did it,I started with each carb turned out CCW 1 3/4 turns out.
She wouldnt Idle well at 1 1/2 turns out.This is running on the Muffs.
Top carb slowly turned the Idle screw in CW until the RPM's started to go up.
I then turned them out CCW a good 1/2 of a turn.
Repeat with the next 2.
I then took her to the lake to test.
I ended up giving the carbs another 1/8 of a turn CCW out and achieved a great hole shot.
Out of curiosity I screwed them back in to being lightly seated and the results were that all three carbs were
very close to being 2 full turns out CCW.Then I adjusted the Idle to around 900 RPMS.I agree you wont burn up your motor with the Idle screws.Most failure comes from lugging the motor(not achieving the RPM range that is suggested from the Manufac.) wrong max timing,wrong prop,cooling,fuel starvation and fuel to oil mix.I am sure there are a number of other things but if your idle screws arent set right to get out of the hole you wont have to worry about these things mentioed( a little humor intended  icon_thumbup.gif ). Take your time the end results are breath taking. icon_clap.gif
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fastjeff » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:54 pm

..."She wouldnt Idle well at 1 1/2 turns out.This is running on the Muffs."

No good, as you've seen.  The motor has to be wrmed up and in gear or the adjustments don't come out right.  

The exception to the above is if you use an infrared temp gun to get all the plugs the same temperature, then add about 1/8th of a turn CCW.  That's how I get those PITA triples to idle right--well, better.

Jeff
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Re: The Tower of Power...before you do anything else

Postby gfgarland » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:54 am

Most of the time low stator voltage is the issue with the ADI inlines when they misbehave like that, so check the voltage with the voltmeter as per the manual toot sweet. It HAS to be right or you will chase that ghost forever, don't touch ANYTHING else till you do!!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby LarryR » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:41 pm

The probelm with my ADI 115 was exactly as George describes, but I would still try the slight CCW idle jet adjustment first.
The test George describes is pretty simple, too.
There are four outputs from the stator, two low speed and two high speed.  If you one missing, or below the minimum level, you'll get the problem similar to yours.
little merc shop, Londonderry, NH; 1946 thru 1961 merc restoration :)
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Garrett » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:38 pm

If I remember correctly, my stator is a bit weak. Mechanic said it wasn't anything to worry about though. I did bump the idle up, and even at 1000 in neutral, it still sometimes dies when put into gear, but other times, it stays running. I backed out the idle screws, and you would not believe the holeshot I got! The tach jumped to 4500 right from the punch. Now I know the difference between bogging, then powering up, and just powering up! The next problem I had was right after I ran it at a high speed then got back down to neutral, it would idle at 1200. If I waited, it would eventually get back down to 1000 or a little under. I would start by buying a new stator if they weren't so expensive!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:56 pm

Now that you got your idle screws set, so you have proper fuel getting to the motor. NOW you can slow your idle back down a bit.  I bet it will idle better now at 900 in NEU and 700 in gear.

Your symptoms predicted incorrect idle and low speed adjustment.  START with the easy and FREE stuff first.  I bet you dont buy any parts :)

Give it a tr
y
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby gfgarland » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:17 pm

Make sure you buy a new red colored stator, not a used black one or you will be wasting your money. Expensive? Yes but it may will cure what ails ya.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby 1500J » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:20 pm

Also I remember you saying you were starting out at 1.5 turns out for the idle adjustment.   My 1500 runs best closer to 2 turns out.  So if you backed them out only 1/8 of a turn, you might still be a pinch lean still.  Id back them out another 1/8th and see if things get more stable.
If you can do the stator test like George says, thats good to do!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Garrett » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:15 am

Okay guys, I have an update. I am extremely frustrated with this thing. The idle is still extremely intermittent and never does what I want. The motor speed varies in neutral for some reason, but it usually is around 900-1000. In gear what kills it is the shift from N to F or R. As soon as I shift, 1000 turns into 500, then if I'm lucky back up to 700. Most of the time it tries to run at 200, then dies if I don't punch the throttle a bit. The prop spins freely in neutral so that shouldn't be putting too much friction or load on it right? It is a 19 pitch SST 3 blade, nothing unusual. I took it to the Mississippi this weekend and realized that this motor is completely impractical in real world use. Without an idle, I can't dock it! The private ski lake I usually run it in doesn't require much maneuvering to the dock, so I'm usually okay there. If I had money I would buy a better running motor. Well on the bright side, this is better then the V4 Evinrude I used to run!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby marchettih2o » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:31 pm

OK...this may be a stretch, but have you checked your compression on all 6 cylinders? I did not reread this thread, perhaps you already have. I had a low cylinder once, and could not get it to idle properly...gg
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby krazy karl » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:08 pm

Garrett wrote:Okay guys, I have an update. I am extremely frustrated with this thing. The idle is still extremely intermittent and never does what I want. The motor speed varies in neutral for some reason, but it usually is around 900-1000. In gear what kills it is the shift from N to F or R. As soon as I shift, 1000 turns into 500, then if I'm lucky back up to 700. Most of the time it tries to run at 200, then dies if I don't punch the throttle a bit. The prop spins freely in neutral so that shouldn't be putting too much friction or load on it right? It is a 19 pitch SST 3 blade, nothing unusual. I took it to the Mississippi this weekend and realized that this motor is completely impractical in real world use. Without an idle, I can't dock it! The private ski lake I usually run it in doesn't require much maneuvering to the dock, so I'm usually okay there. If I had money I would buy a better running motor. Well on the bright side, this is better then the V4 Evinrude I used to run!


I had one of those that came on a boat that I wanted.  That big hunk of aluminum probably made a lot of beer cans.  The funny thing was the electamatic gear shift still worked even though they were supposed to be very problematical.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Garrett » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:49 am

I guess poor idle is just something I will have to live with. I have gone through everything, and yet nothing has changed my situation. Oh well!

krazy karl wrote:
Garrett wrote:Okay guys, I have an update. I am extremely frustrated with this thing. The idle is still extremely intermittent and never does what I want. The motor speed varies in neutral for some reason, but it usually is around 900-1000. In gear what kills it is the shift from N to F or R. As soon as I shift, 1000 turns into 500, then if I'm lucky back up to 700. Most of the time it tries to run at 200, then dies if I don't punch the throttle a bit. The prop spins freely in neutral so that shouldn't be putting too much friction or load on it right? It is a 19 pitch SST 3 blade, nothing unusual. I took it to the Mississippi this weekend and realized that this motor is completely impractical in real world use. Without an idle, I can't dock it! The private ski lake I usually run it in doesn't require much maneuvering to the dock, so I'm usually okay there. If I had money I would buy a better running motor. Well on the bright side, this is better then the V4 Evinrude I used to run!


I had one of those that came on a boat that I wanted.  That big hunk of aluminum probably made a lot of beer cans.  The funny thing was the electamatic gear shift still worked even though they were supposed to be very problematical.
kk


I have heard bad things too. Mine didn't have one, I think they stopped it around 1970.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby gfgarland » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:24 am

Well Sir, you are going to have to do this by the numbers and do not deviate from what I am going to tell you. Start with a compression test, no less than 120 psi and even across the board. Next, set the timing by the book, and then do it again to make sure you got it right. Then get someone else to check your work. Don't have the Merc repair manual? Then get one, no excuses here you cannot work without it. Period. And I don't mean the aftermarket crap either, get the real deal. Next go through the carbs and make sure the butterflies are all closed at idle and open together, very important. Check the plugs for signs of water which will indicate bad seals or a cracked jacket. Rev the engine to 2500 or so and spray storage seal down each carb throat, then shut the key off abruptly. Any smoke back out the throat means bad reeds. Check that the bleed restrictors are there in the transfer ports. Check for a crankcase leak or a transfer port cover leaking air by squirting a little WD-40 down the seams and see if there is a change in idle. Double the fuel mix and if the idle improves the reed cage lab seals are bad. And above all, do a DVA test on the stator. If the voltage is low, you will NEVER get the bastard to idle, no matter what else you do. Get back to us after you have done all this, and we will go from there.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby daveswaves » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:05 am

Another cause for flakey idle which has not been mentioned yet is worn labyrinth seals on the reed blocks.  HI George!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby gfgarland » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:18 am

Dave you old rattlesnake, how are ya!!!!   :mrgreen:

For those that don't know him Dave is one of the formost authorities on inline Mercs that I know of, and a Hell of a great friend besides. When he speaks, I suggest you listen!!!
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby daveswaves » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:39 am

Formost?????  Thanks for the compliment George, I just like old mercs and like to tinker icon_crazy.gif .   George is the master :wink:
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby gfgarland » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:22 am

Yeah right... this from a man who is building an EFI system for inlines from scratch. Calling Dave a tinkerer is like calling a Stradivarious a fiddle.
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Garrett » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:42 am

Sorry its been a while! I have been extremely busy with skiing and tournaments. Now school in 2 days!  icon_thumbdown.gif  Anyway, I picked up this timing light for $3 at a garage sale and was wondering if it would work with my motor. What do you guys use?
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Re: The Tower of Power...

Postby Fastjeff » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:29 am

It will, but they are very wek so you'll need to do it in a dark place.  I refuse to use one of them after a friend of mine lost a fingertip with one--he got too close to the vee belts while timing his motor.  A good timing light allows one to stand off.

Jeff
The only person who can't enter the USA from Mexico is Sargent Tahrmooressi.
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