55 25E

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55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:42 pm

My new project was my friend Bill Swift's motor. It was his father's. He gave this to me when he was clearing out his garages, before he passed away.  Finally, I'm getting into it.  It'll be one of several motors that I hope to run on an AlumaCraft Model R that I picked up last summer and have been working on over the winter. I hope to compare my KG7; Chris Craft Commander; KH7 this 25E and another double dark secret engine that I can't divulge yet....
   8-)

IMG_5589.jpeg


IMG_5776.jpeg
Only broke two bolts! One in the tiller and one that held the starter solenoid on to the top of the block.
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby 208rooster » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:49 pm

Toby I hope you post lots of pictures of this build I am getting ready to put a Mark 25 together for the first time and could use all the help I can get. Thanks Rick
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:10 am

Keep track of the ignition parts!  :mrgreen:
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Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby chuckw » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:30 am

Mark 25s are one of my favorite motors: I have 6 (one on a Q tower). I"ll bet yours outruns the KG7. [fingerscrossed.gif]
KG7(4), Mark20H(2), 20H conversion, KF7(4), KE7, KH7, 25SS, KG7H(3), KG7Q, KG4Q, Mark 15 pumper, Mark 25Q, Mark 15, Mark 20, Mark 25(5), KG4, KF5, KD4, KD3, KE4, Mark 7, WG7, WN7, WM7A, Mark 20 rat.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mark 55 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:04 am

Nice Toby! A good choice to share here! Thanks and good luck!!
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mercaholic » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:00 pm

A bit of a tough motor to work on due to close clearances to suit the starter components.   A well engineered model tho in order to fit all the parts under the hood.

I worked an a few of them in the past, most recently an acquisition from North Tonawanda.
Every one I worked on, I kept thinking of the poor guys on the assembly line that had to bolt them up.... [violin.gif]
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Re: 55 25E

Postby zul8tr » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:34 pm

I bet they got reeeeal good at assembly if that was mostly all they did. Just like anything you do often you get expert at it. Like my 25ss It has been apart so many times I can do it very quick and reassemble correct very fast.

And yes the assembly line must have been fun  [wrench.gif]  but boring and tedious at times.  

My Dad had difficult tedious assembly jobs on the P47 Thunderbolt during WWII as line foreman at Republic Avaition in Farmingdale Long Island. He said the women were the best and did it right and fast. But they were sure thinking about Pilots safety with great planes in Europe, so getting it right was very important [usa.gif]
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:11 pm

Fingerlakeskid wrote:Keep track of the ignition parts!  :mrgreen:


IMG_5696.jpeg

I might have to lose these parts on purpose!   :wink:
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby ctpdsr » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:32 pm

OMG - I will stick to 4-Cylinder Mags!

Kinda interesting. A 1955 MK55 would have had an FMC mag with a coil that would get squishy like a rotten lime with age. 2-Cylinder mags like yours have 2 coils that crack apart like mummy bones. Over the span of just 2-3 years the Merc 4-Cylinder mags had way better quality coils that in many cases can be cleaned and used today! I don't know the exact timeline for the 2-Cylinder evolution, but the coils in my 1967 Merc Phelon plate have held up just fine.


Chuck
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Re: 55 25E

Postby 58woody » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:33 pm

Maybe Carl had a destruction method built in, LOL
Mark 6, 1956 Mark 55 & 55E, 1959 Mark 55A, 1958 Mark 58, 1960 Merc 300, 1961 Merc 500, 1961 Merc 700, 1964 Merc 1000 Bradford, Ontario, Canada

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Re: 55 25E

Postby mercaholic » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:22 pm

ctpdsr wrote: I don't know the exact timeline for the 2-Cylinder evolution, but the coils in my 1967 Merc Phelon plate have held up just fine.
Chuck


The later Phelon coils had an updated mag plate design and the coils had much tougher coatings that kept them well intact from splitting but the coils were also firmly fastened onto the laminates such that removing them to replace was a challenge.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:53 am

At least it's Phelon. The Mark 25 and 25E are great motors. You'll love that on your R. Get it done so we can take it to Tomahawk!
Stan Augustine

Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby 208rooster » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:04 am

Toby here's what mine is shaping up to look like.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:23 pm

Pictures...

IMG_5776.jpeg
Lots of stuff to clean


IMG_5792.jpeg
...and media blast


IMG_5794.jpeg
Home made DynaFloat puller - I put the "Shade" in Shade tree mechanic.


IMG_5801.jpeg
Mercury swivel pin puller - I love using these old tools!


IMG_5815.jpeg
More to clean, wire wheel and glass bead


IMG_5820.jpeg
primer


IMG_5816.jpeg
tiller didn't work right...


IMG_5842.jpeg
I think I know why!

    Remarkably, this tiller pinion gear is still available over at Marine Engine.com. Seems crazy that this could still be still in stock after 63 years!  
This motor overheated at one point, but all the rings are loose - no signs of scuffing and the compression is at 120# - on both cylinders. I'm tempted to leave the factory lead seal, on the block, in place.  Talk me out of it.  8-)
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby outboard315 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:23 pm

On the one hand you are this far why not go all the way.

On the other, why put money into changing gaskets that may not seal properly then you are chasing a problem that could be anywhere. Also you loose the provenance of a sealed original motor. Mark my words one day those lead seals are going to bring a premium one of these days.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:04 am

I've got boxes of lead seals, how many yah want? I know a guy in Waterloo that could EDM a die to squash the K into them.  My thought is what good is a sealed block with a rod out the side? Open the case for inspection and change the crank seals.
Stan Augustine

Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby chuckw » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:11 am

Toby, based on the face plate your motor is a 56, not a 55. Am I missing something?
KG7(4), Mark20H(2), 20H conversion, KF7(4), KE7, KH7, 25SS, KG7H(3), KG7Q, KG4Q, Mark 15 pumper, Mark 25Q, Mark 15, Mark 20, Mark 25(5), KG4, KF5, KD4, KD3, KE4, Mark 7, WG7, WN7, WM7A, Mark 20 rat.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mark 55 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:15 am

chuckw wrote:Toby, based on the face plate your motor is a 56, not a 55. Am I missing something?



I was thinking the same thing based on those lines above the lightning bolt on the port side cowl. I thought the 55 didn't have them. Also, the 56 recoil has that notch in the side to accommodate that bump (with the stripes) on top of the starter bulge but the 55 doesn't have it.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:17 am

Let me clarify something for everyone about my comment on the lead seal on the block I made in an above post. It was my warped sense of humor talking. The "guy in Waterloo that could EDM the die" for the K seal is Outboard315 himself (even he didn't get it, asking me who it was.)  My point was that the seal isn't important, it can be forged and I'm sure many probably have. Few of you realized that the guy in Waterloo, was the guy I was responding too. I was making a point    --   NOT offering to forge block seals. End of rant.
Stan Augustine

Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:33 pm

Yep - it's a 56. Just a little dyslexia is all....
I will open the case and inspect...at this point, silly not to.
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dannynagasaki » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:45 am

Messin with the seal is like crackin a safe...LOL!! Gotta love the waffle face plate... :arrow:
55' Mark 25, 55' Mark 55E, 58' Mark 10, 58' Mark 35, 58' Mark 78E (2) 62' Merc 60, 62' Merc 450, 67' Humber Jewel, 74' Grew SS140, Oak Ridges, ON (winter), Wahsoune Island, Georgian Bay, ON (summer) Canada
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dannynagasaki » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:48 am

What might cause a tiller handle to totally seize?
55' Mark 25, 55' Mark 55E, 58' Mark 10, 58' Mark 35, 58' Mark 78E (2) 62' Merc 60, 62' Merc 450, 67' Humber Jewel, 74' Grew SS140, Oak Ridges, ON (winter), Wahsoune Island, Georgian Bay, ON (summer) Canada
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Re: 55 25E

Postby 49morphew » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:17 am

If you haven't already removed it from the elbow, do so
If its bent it will stick. I have a MK30 that I thought the tiller was locked up. Turns out the handle was bent right at the elbow perhaps from falling over. It was only slightly bent but you could not see it till the two were apart and that was the problem
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mercaholic » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:30 pm

dannynagasaki wrote:What might cause a tiller handle to totally seize?


49morphew is correct in that you need to detach the arm from the elbow and grease things up inside.

There are a lot of linkage joints connected to an operating tiller arm.  Over the years, the original grease can 'glue' the joints in place making movement difficult.  Whatever you do, do not force the arm to twist.

Just ask what 55woody's Mk30 tiller gears looked like.... [yeahthat.gif]
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dannynagasaki » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:01 am

Thank you 49morphew and John, I will most certainly carefully disassemble and investigate all of those gummed up "used to be" moving parts without the use of force but this MK15 with a locked tiller I've noticed is slightly bent. Chris's MK 30 had to have been a victim of "Timberrr!"  :lol: Can't imagine damage from misuse by Chris.
55' Mark 25, 55' Mark 55E, 58' Mark 10, 58' Mark 35, 58' Mark 78E (2) 62' Merc 60, 62' Merc 450, 67' Humber Jewel, 74' Grew SS140, Oak Ridges, ON (winter), Wahsoune Island, Georgian Bay, ON (summer) Canada
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:20 pm

I just walked out the door after a 40 year construction career - one company.   Retirement starts right now!  I'm heading to the shop to have a cold beer and work on the 25E!  
8-)    [drinkingcheers.gif]
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby chuckw » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:35 pm

Congratulations Toby. I am sure you will enjoy retirement. I taught middle school history for 41 years and haven't looked back. Enjoy the beer. [drinkingcheers.gif]
BTW, would you have a complete gas cap for a KE7??
Chuck Webster
KG7(4), Mark20H(2), 20H conversion, KF7(4), KE7, KH7, 25SS, KG7H(3), KG7Q, KG4Q, Mark 15 pumper, Mark 25Q, Mark 15, Mark 20, Mark 25(5), KG4, KF5, KD4, KD3, KE4, Mark 7, WG7, WN7, WM7A, Mark 20 rat.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:36 pm

Congratulations buddy! Bet your golf game will improve now!  Enjoy !!!!!
Stan Augustine

Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dave bernard » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:05 pm

Not what it is cracked up to be after 14yrs. MUCH BETTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 55 25E

Postby 49morphew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:15 am

First of all, Congratulations on your retirement Toby. 40 years in the construction trade and with the same company is a major accomplishment. I'm sure your experience and knowledge will be missed by your coworkers. Enjoy your retirement and keep us posted with your projects.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:30 am

Thanks everyone! So I didn't make it to the shop after all....had a nap instead!  :oops:  now I'm going out!
Chuck - is a KE7 cap like a KG7?
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby biglargeone » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:48 am

Congrats on the retirement :arrow:
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Re: 55 25E

Postby white-merc » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:58 pm

Lucky guy to be able to retire. Now you are going to be busier than ever before!

Congratulations
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Re: 55 25E

Postby SteveC » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:38 am

Toby Hall wrote:I just walked out the door after a 40 year construction career - one company.   Retirement starts right now!  I'm heading to the shop to have a cold beer and work on the 25E!  
8-)    [drinkingcheers.gif]



Congratulations on your retirement Toby!

I ended up signing the papers on March 15th myself.  I have no idea of when they will be done with me, but the process has started.  I am already starting to count the fish I plan to catch!

Steve
2 KD-4s, 2 KE-4's, 3 KE-7's, KF-7, KG-7 rat, 4 KG-7's,2 KH-7's, 2 KF-5's, 2 Mk-5's, 4 Mk-20's, 7 Mk-25's, Mk-28.5, 3 Mk-10's , Merc. 450, 6 Merc.110's 63,67,68,68,69,70, 14 200's, Merc 60, Merc 800(71), & 1984 "D.U." 7.5
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mercaholic » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:45 pm

Toby, your timing is perfect with the good weather almost upon us.

I hope you didn't make the mistake I did in not telling the wife of your retirement.  The surprise didn't go over too well.... :?:  

As things turned out, I did head back into the world of contract work last winter to keep up my license but only after I had exhausted all my basement motor projects.

Enjoy... [drinkingcheers.gif]
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mark 55 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:23 pm

Dang Toby! CONGRATULATIONS!! That is very awesome. I am a carpenter too and can't imagine being with the same outfit for 40 years! Good for you! Stay in shape and keep movin'! I have no doubt you'll do both. Now you can really ramp up the motor restos!

Look forward to seeing you at Tomahawk again!
Scott
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:10 pm

Thanks everybody! I have a feeling I might excel at this retirement thing!  [drinkingcheers.gif]
Some more progress...

IMG_5878.jpeg
More parts cleaning. The chewed up gear in the tiller has been replaced. Cleaned, regreased, spins smoothly again!


IMG_5879.jpeg
Extra wires coming out of the stator bottom


IMG_5881.jpeg
Extra wires went to each set of points, but were disconnected at some point. On/off from the key switch?


IMG_5883.jpeg
new/old. The new coil seems to be hitting underneath on the stator. Doesn't want to go down tight. Anyone else run into this?
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dave bernard » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:51 pm

the 2 extra wires are for the key switch    off makes contact between the 2 wires   on breaks contact.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:11 pm

IMG_5889.jpeg
I had to relieve a small chunk of the coil so it wouldn't hit the stator plate. The white dot of paint on the bottom coil shows where it was hitting. The top red coil is an old NOS coil and already had a little bit removed.


IMG_5904.jpeg
Original controls. Weird that the old style KAMINC came with the 56...they must have been using up inventory.


IMG_5905.jpeg
Old hard grease and spider eggs. No cables and the wires are cut.


IMG_5925.jpeg
Driver's seat.
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby mark 55 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:43 pm

Toby, those kamincs with start and choke button are wicked rare! I have seen maybe 5 sets ever!

Lookin' good! Love that wheel! Gonna be a killer rig!
Scott
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:28 am

Well I cut the wire on the lead seal and opened up the case.   [front.gif]     Both pistons are scored and the top cylinder doesn't really pass the finger nail test. I knew it had been over heated and now I can see the results...

IMG_5963.jpeg
Cool tool


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Ugly


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Cleaned up but still ugly


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Spacer bolt in place, before I remove the crank


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The good news - the bearing surfaces look good.


I squirted oil in the cylinders, before I tore this down and the compression was an even 120# for both, even with these pistons. Are they toast and should I start looking for parts?
  (I think I already know the answer.)
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:29 pm

Super Dave to the rescue!    [wrench.gif]   Thanks Mr Bernard!   [blue.gif]                                                 [blue.gif]
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby ctpdsr » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:02 pm

My general rule is if the scoring extends into the ring lands, they are officially junk....Good news is decent used standard bore pistons are not rare.

Chuck
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Re: 55 25E

Postby dave bernard » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:44 pm

Toby block w/ rods and pistons will go out Monday pistons are in the correct bores as it was running when you get it.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Fri May 03, 2019 7:48 pm

She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed is pretty happy that I'm retired now, with nothing better to do except monkey around with old Mercurys.....she told me so.   [wrench.gif]

IMG_5993.jpeg
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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Re: 55 25E

Postby outboard315 » Fri May 03, 2019 10:42 pm

Toby you are not supposed to take pictures, that's called evidence.
Brandon Cocola
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Fingerlakeskid » Sat May 04, 2019 6:46 pm

I'm willing to bet Mary wasn't home when you pulled that little stunt OR ---- you got an oven out in your shop!
Stan Augustine

Mark 30 tiller,  (2)Mark 55, Mark 58A (2)Merc 200 FGS, Merc 450, Merc 500, Merc 60.  1950 CZT Penn Yan Swift, 1957 Alumacraft FD, 1985 Larson Senza w/Merc 1150,
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Re: 55 25E

Postby Toby Hall » Wed May 15, 2019 12:44 am

Fingerlakeskid wrote:I'm willing to bet Mary wasn't home when you pulled that little stunt OR ---- you got an oven out in your shop!

I have an icebox in my shop - for bearing freezing.... [drinkingcheers.gif]    I told her I was cooking a roast!   [wrench.gif]

IMG_6020.jpeg
Sparking again

Carb and LU next.   8-)
The stuff you can't see - That's what's important.
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